|
 |
|
Windsurfing Forums
|
|
|
| Author |
Messages |
|
Roald
Posts:8
 |
| 03/09/2009 10:54 AM |
|
Dear all,
I sailed at witsands yesterday and when we checked out the Factory, we were shouted at by a surfer. After my second wave I went over to chat to find out what the problem was. Ian Armstrong was the surfer. He said that maritime law prohibits any windpowered craft to come within 100m of swimmers or surfers. He said we should go sail somewhere else. He also didn't like my suggestion to share the spot.
I've always simply applied surfers rules when I sail at the Factory; If I'm on the wave first, it's my wave. I've never met a surfer who passes up a nice wave so that a fellow surfer can ride it. So why would I be the gentleman on the water when surfers aren't?
Now, I don't like being shouted at, it disturbes my fun. And I'll concede that windsurfers disturb a surfer's session.
So can we share the same spot? I think so, I actually have sailed at the Factory when windsurfers and surfers scored some nice waves.
There may be 5 days in the whole year that I sail at the Factory because it doesn't work very often, I'm sure surfers have the spot to themselves on plenty more occasions when there is no wind.
If anyone has Ian's email address and would like to forward it to me, I'd like to discuss this with him. I've been warned not to escalate any antagony. I'd like to avoid that too. I want to appeal to the surfer's reason.
We don't need to be friends, we don't even have to respect each other. I'm convinced they think of windsurfing as an aberrant form of surfing and a ridiculour pass-time. Similarly I despise the surfer's sense of entitlement. So let's not waste time on that.
Are they going to shut their traps on the few days the spot works for windsurfing?
Regards,
Roald
|
|
|
|
|
Bear
Posts:3
|
| 03/09/2009 1:58 PM |
|
ianarmstrongsurfer@hotmail.com |
|
|
|
|
Ballistic
Posts:34
|
| 04/09/2009 9:13 AM |
|
This is the kind of attitude that causes hassles in the water. With all the spots available to surfers you think that they would be a little more reasonable at the few that we can actually sail at. Same old story one or two idiots make it unpleasant for everyone else.
Planning on having a look at the Factory on Sunday, hope I can be as reasonable as you if Mr. Plod the police man is out.
I seem to remember someone saying that in Hawaii surfers have sunrise till 12pm and windsurfers from 12pm till dusk, would be very interested to see if Cape Town surfers would stick to that.
|
|
|
|
|
Donovan01
Posts:21
|
| 07/09/2009 1:24 PM |
|
Roald,
Applying logic to your argument is not usefull.
I sail and surf.
This is not a general problem - it is an individual specific problem. I have had no problem surfing Supers with 60 guys out, but have had issues with 3 guys out at some arbitrary spot when there are plenty of waves.
You will never solve this - it always boils down to some grumpy old sod's over developed sense of localism.
Don't waste your time....it's incurable. |
|
|
|
|
Eugene
Posts:121
|
| 07/09/2009 5:04 PM |
|
| Dont even waste you breath with an individual who does not even have any respect for his fellow surfers, i say when it's good, go sail and screw them. Crayfish factory does not belong to a bunch of hippies who surf boards way too long for the break anyway. |
|
|
|
|
Liz
Posts:73
|
| 07/09/2009 6:43 PM |
|
Roald
I've had a similar email 'conversation' with someone about something vaguely similar and really, there isn't any point as it just ends up being pretty heated.
In his mind, this isn't up for discussion, and he'll not understand all the intricacies that windsurfing entail.
Part of the sport, I'm afraid. I just suggest that everyone plays nicely on the water and windsurfers don't buzz through the line-up, because that is pretty annoying.. |
|
|
|
|
africatom
Posts:8
|
| 09/09/2009 12:32 PM |
|
Hey Roald,
I sailed the Factory many times when there where Surfers out, also with Ian, never any shouting from him. Maybe he had a bad day!? Normally its the guys that dont catch waves that shout and are looking for a reason ;-))
The Factory has always been a windsurfing spot as well and how often does it work to to bottom, so the guys must take it easy! When I had that epic session there with Andrew, just before he died, there where a couple of surfers out and they cheered and gave us the occasional "Yeah", because it was really big and they couldn´t get most of the big set waves anyway and we had some awesome rides... we had a really nice chat with those surfers after the session...
What I actually like to tell you is: Just ignore it! Dont even bother to send Ian an email!
Cheers Thomas |
|
|
|
|
sailorboysteve
Posts:35
|
| 14/09/2009 9:56 AM |
|
I reckon ignore is the way to go for now, might not happen again.
Quite funny he'd bring up the law, as he's well known to be, well you make up your own mind:
www.liquidmilitia.com/LMteam/ian.php
|
|
|
|
|
Chot
Posts:31
|
| 15/09/2009 6:30 PM |
|
There is simply no debate on this issue:
Any skipper of a sailing vessel can inform you about Rule 18 of the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at sea (HO-15) which clearly states a vessel underway (windsurfer) shall keep out the way of a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre (a surfer paddling on his board).
Thats the law.
Its an important issue and i am glad its been raised.
With the increase in windsurfing 'visitors' to our shores each year the local crew need to understand a few basics and pass on the love to these 'visitors'.
As a windsurfer (read wavesailor) one should understand ones place in the ocean and understand where we came from.
Windsurfing was born from sailing and surfing, 2 sports that have been around a lot longer than we have.
Thats the first point of respect we should hold for surfers.
Secondly as a wavesailor one should at least try to learn to surf so you can gain some of the nuances and etiquette involved in surfing and being in waves. Do all windsurfers know not to drop in? or any of the etiquette involved? One simply cannot apply the rule 'if i am on the wave first' as windsurfers will obviously always be on the waves first because they catch the swells way out to sea. If a longboarder who also has the ability to catch waves early, hogs all the waves, he will also be shouted down by the rest of the surfers.
Thirdly, when sailing new spots one has to take cognisance of the local situation and give the locals their due respect. If you are going to sail a spot, surf a spot or just bodysurf you first check out how the locals roll, be humble and show due respect.
As a wavesailor i hear your pain and it sucks to have surfers in the line-up on windy days when it is great wavesailing, but thats life. Think of it like the tow surfers do. If guys are paddling a big wave spot then the PWC's are not welcome. Same goes for windsurfers. Surfers were here first. Apart from the fact that it is incredibly dangerous to speed through a line-up on your windsurfer whilst surfers bob up and down unable to move anywhere fast, it also just goes against any waterman etiquette there is out there.
Wavesailing evolved from sailing, windsurfing and surfing. A knowledge of these three disciplines should be a pre-requisite before hitting the waves especially at a special break with a big history like the factory.
As far as Ian Armstrong goes he is a South African surfing legend who was riding barrels at the factory before windsurfing ever came to South Africa. Along with Cass Collier he won the 1999 ISA Big Wave World Team Championships. I think he has earned a little respect.
I believe we can share the waves but it has to be in a very disciplined fashion. For example at e-bay its quite possible to ride the outside sections and kick out before your reach the sections where all the surfers are sitting. That way we avoid any collisions and confrontations.
Having crossed the Pacific and Atlantic oceans on my yacht and surfed and windsurfed many foreign waves I learned to eat humble pie before taking on a new spot. If i had taken the approach many windsurfers seem to take in our waves i dont think i would have made it back without at least a giant coral head being shoved up my ass.
I hope the local crew ( I include here the foreigners that live here and have made this their home ) can pass on a little of this understanding to the 'visitors' who are about to flood our shores with ignorance and dangerous behaviour. I hope it works or perhaps we need to adopt a more militant approach like Da Hui in Hawaii...
P.S there are a lot more great big wave spots to sail in the NW that do not involve any collisions with surfers....keep searching!
|
|
|
|
|
Eugene
Posts:121
|
| 15/09/2009 9:33 PM |
|
Firstly:
The term “vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre” means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to manoeuvre as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. The term “vessels restricted in their ability to manoeuvre” shall include but not be limited to:
(i) a vessel engaged in laying, servicing or picking up a navigation mark, submarine cable or pipeline;
(ii) a vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;
(iii) a vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;
(iv) a vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;
(v) a vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;
(vi) a vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.
This hardly applies to a surfer!!!
Then Also...
(b) A vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre, except a vessel engaged in mine-clearance operations, shall exhibit:
1. three all-round lights in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these lights shall be red and the middle light shall be white;
2. three shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these shapes shall be balls and the middle one a diamond;
3. when making way through the water, a masthead light or lights, sidelights and a sternlight, in addition to the lights prescribed in sub-paragraph (i);
4. when at anchor, in addition to the lights or shapes prescribed in sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii), the light, lights or shape prescribed in Rule 30.
mmmmm....
Recently a surfer who was ridden over by one of those noisey rubber ducky things was found to be at fault when it went to court because he did not fall under any merchant shipping legislation and was not in a designated bathing area.
Basically the law may not be as it seems. It gets rather murky!!!
Becarefull where you go with this, or you may end up needing a skippers ticket to surf!!!
More to the point is that surfers need to work out that the waves do not belong to them, and windsurfers need to be considerate and not take every single wave they can(unlike some surfers, esp those on oversize long boards!!)
Also, Jonathan Paarman and his mates were surfring and windsurfing the factory long before Ian and his mates came along, but you dont see them going out and behaving like idiots claiming every wave as theirs!!! so the argument of who was there first is rather mute, fact is we are all here now and need to get along.
As for those "great big wave spots to sail in the NW " why not just go surf there on the odd day when the factory is suitable to windsurfing. Oh wait, is it because they are crap???
I guess it just REALLY bugs me when those surfers who think nothing of paddling around you and taking off, never bother to wait their turn in the lineup, always seem to make the most noise and throw their toys out their cot when someone comes along and treats them with the same disrespect. |
|
|
|
|
Chot
Posts:31
|
| 16/09/2009 9:29 AM |
|
You clearly do not understand.
Cutting and pasting the IRPC rules does not mean you actually read or understand them.
You have written yourself here:
The term “vessels restricted in their ability to manoeuvre” shall include but not be limited to....
SHALL INCLUDE BUT NOT BE LIMITED TO
any vessel that is restricted must be given space by the vessel underway, period.
Then there is also Rule 2b:
In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessel involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.
If you mow down a surfer on your windsurfer you WILL be held responsible.
But what a brilliant idea Eugene, skippers of windsurfers should indeed have to have a skippers ticket.
I shall begin lobbying this with SA Sailing. They have always been keen on the idea and this is a perfect reason to enforce it. Great stuff!
No surfer at the factory ever shouts down a windsurfer they have seen surfing the spot and paddling over the ledge. No because they recognise they have completed the right of passage to be there in the first place. So go spend some time surfing the factory, stare the beast in the face and paddle yourself into some 15 foot bombs. Then you can graduate to windsurfing the place.
and as for those "great big wave spots to sail in the NW " i was refering to windsurfing!
keep searching pal!
|
|
|
|
|
Eugene
Posts:121
|
| 16/09/2009 12:11 PM |
|
Actually I am qualified to skipper vessels up to 100ton or 25m in length, I have skippered vessels locally and abroad, I totally understand the IRPC and have been tested on it. I could go and quote a whole bunch of stuff to show you how little you understand, but thats not the point of my post. the point of my post was :
"More to the point is that surfers need to work out that the waves do not belong to them, and windsurfers need to be considerate and not take every single wave they can(unlike some surfers, esp those on oversize long boards!!) "
And, for the record I have surfer the factory as big as it gets(and some even scarier spots), and I still dont understand why they need to surf 10ft boards that are 4 inches thick at the factory??(Dungeons and sunset, yes) Maybe they just scared to take off late, or too lazy to paddle hard!
And why should I go windsurf some other crappy sub-standard spot just to please some greedy surfers.
Yawn....
|
|
|
|
|
Eugene
Posts:121
|
| 16/09/2009 12:13 PM |
|
| PS: If a surfer in my way, he will be held responsible! |
|
|
|
|
Eugene
Posts:121
|
| 16/09/2009 12:14 PM |
|
I'll try again...
PS: If a surfer GETS in my way, he will be held responsible!
|
|
|
|
|
Eugene
Posts:121
|
| 16/09/2009 12:41 PM |
|
For the record:
Just got off the phone with a Captain from SAMSA. His opinion is that surfers are not part of any maritime law.
|
|
|
|
|
Eugene
Posts:121
|
| 16/09/2009 12:43 PM |
|
| Chot, At least have the balls to put a name to your post. |
|
|
|
|
bigairdave
Posts:86
|
| 16/09/2009 1:07 PM |
|
phew ... good thing we don't spend too much time trying to sail supers.
I think common-sense usually prevails, and those with large egos/attitudes on the water, can live in their self-obsessed world.
They put up some new rules at ho'okipa in 2007, and not too sure how the written/unwritten rules have been applied since. unwritten rules : no sailors before lunchtime (although there are few occasions when this is "flexed"). new written rules : no sailors beyond certain landmarks, and no sailors when there are more than 10 surfers in the water. this was causing a few hassles, as the surfers were paddling out in windy conditions just to chase sailors off their territory, which is also a world-famous sailing spot.
so, the mentality is everywhere. lets just have fun, and enjoy our sport!!
ps : hoping not to be in a wave-heat against Eugene at Noordhoek next week, cos of a previous local unwritten rule that his wave is his wave, and your wave could be his too. Although it's been so long since we sailed that wave, and i think that rule evaporated a few years back !! hehehee. But, then again time on the water, and one of the few to play with the outer bowl, does increase your pecking-order ability. Boet, we're out to get you this year!
Luckily the surfers in pe get a bit scared when the 20cm fins start flying around, so they realise the playground/conditions have changed to suit other craft. |
|
|
|
|
Eugene
Posts:121
|
| 16/09/2009 1:30 PM |
|
LOL Dave,
But thats the nice thing about us windsurfers, we dont mind sharing waves, do we?? he he..
Had a session there yesterday, was mast and a half and some nice waves till the tide changed, then we sailed some great waves a Cobbles, mast high. Had to rest half way along my first wave before carrying on down the point....eish!
|
|
|
|
|
Forward Loop
Posts:43
|
| 16/09/2009 2:00 PM |
|
Eish wena!
Seems that this is always going to be a touchie subject, regardless of one's point of view. Lets just all remember how much we enjoy this awesome sport of ours, and chill out. We're probably all quilty of shouting at kiters, surfers as well as being on the receiving end sometimes from visitors who think this is the local shoreline and maybe possibly dropping in on said visitors occasionally to remind them who's country this is. Regardless, instead of stating maritime legislation, and confusing the hell out of SA411 (never mind an kiters trying to read this), may I suggest we get a little proactive about this issue.
What if we start putting together a 'code of conduct' or windsurfing etiquette on this forum. You know, nothing cast in stone, rulebook, bloodpack or anything like that. But just some 'unwritten' windsurfing etiquette information.
Stuff like:
Right of way when sailing (whether heading out, back in, on a wave etc)
Rigging up and parking in front of or on the walk ways.
Rigging up on the vegetation in the reserve and leaving litter behind
Damage to kit and or person, and who may be lliable, or if its nature of the sport
How many times your car alarm may honk when unlocking it
Whether cutting kiters lines is encourage
There are a lot of people out there with vast experience and knowledge regarding topics like this, from every point of view (windsurfer, surfer, boardies over wetsuiters, skinny dippers), so why not pool all the knowledge and see what we come up with. I sure know I'd like to have some clarity on certain things, as I've heard so many conflicting 'rules.' It also means that if there were any boarders out of line (local or visitor), one could ask them to go have a read through the forum and see how things should ideally work on the water. I reckon that maybe it should be started in a new topic on the main forum, if there are people out there that agree and want to have their input (my 2 cents worth, doesn't allow me to start it off).
Otherwise, as I'd have to say that the one common thread throughout all these issues is COMMON SENSE. So lets all just apply it, and enjoy the water together.
Here's to a windy season.
Cheers
Phil |
|
|
|
|
Chot
Posts:31
|
| 16/09/2009 2:15 PM |
|
Dry your eyes Captain eugene! My name is nic for whatever comfort that brings you.
There is no point continuing this dribble argument now, go sailing wherever you like, nature will take its course and good luck to you!
You do not surf the factory regularly (dont you live in PE anyway!!?), thats a fact, and i'm not the guy you should be worried about. I decided to engage in this debate to see if it would help but clearly not.
So will leave it up to nature to sort this out. Please come surf the factory next time there are a bunch of surfers out and lets see what happens to you.
The surfers of the south peninsula are more than a little pissed off by the conduct of windsurfers and kiteboarders from what happened last season. This is another example but rest assured there will be some consequences this year...
|
|
|
|
|
Chot
Posts:31
|
| 16/09/2009 2:24 PM |
|
Right On Forward Loop Phil, thats some constructive ideas and you have got it spot on. I will contribute to that line of thought as opposed to this venomous crap i have been wasting my energy on.
Good idea bro, and lets add 'dont feed the Baboons at cape point' to the list
|
|
|
|
|
Liz
Posts:73
|
| 16/09/2009 2:50 PM |
|
Roald..see what you did now??
I say AYE to the Code of Conduct mentioned by Steve, but I do believe it could get complicated.. |
|
|
|
|
Liz
Posts:73
|
| 16/09/2009 2:53 PM |
|
| Sorry Forward loop, I meant Phil, not Steve. Doh. |
|
|
|
|
Eugene
Posts:121
|
| 16/09/2009 3:20 PM |
|
Hey chop, you right, I am the captain of my windsurfer...
|
|
|
|
|
Eugene
Posts:121
|
| 16/09/2009 3:25 PM |
|
| I agree with Liz, it's all Roald's fault, I suggest a 2 match ban after PE.....;) |
|
|
|
|
Jake Kolnik
Posts:9
|
| 16/09/2009 4:51 PM |
|
hey Eugene, talk is cheap, you say that you have surfed the factory as big as it gets :
you are giving yourself away......If you had, you would know what sort of equipment was required, and believe me Ian does it just right.. i have never seen you out there, (i suppose i should be looking for the ou on the 6 foot board), i live down the road from the factory, and I surf the factory all the time!! i happen to know all the locals as well, including johnny Paarman, who still surfs it on a regular basis.... funny i don't know you....and believe me he's not gonna accept some expats tearing through the line up...
This, your next statement, just proves you are a total kook:
"And, for the record I have surfed the factory as big as it gets (and some even scarier spots), and I still dont understand why they need to surf 10ft boards that are 4 inches thick at the factory??(Dungeons and sunset, yes) Maybe they just scared to take off late, or too lazy to paddle hard! "
If you were one of the regular big wave crew, i could accept a statement like that.
The point is eugene, if windsurfers want to ride proper waves, they need to learn some surfing etiquette.
Ous like chot, are welcome to windsurf the factory, because he also surfs there, and shows respect, and caution when there are surfers out.....The reality is that it is very dangerous to have windsurfers and surfers in the same zone, but luckily these are rare occasions when the conditions are good for both sports.
Forget about all your legal bullshit, the factory is primarily a surfing spot, and if need be we will keep it that way.
Don't start a war where there isn't one. Your attitude is very arrogant, and bad naming guys like Ian is uncalled for. He is one of the best paddle surfers in the country, and does not need arb Germans telling him how it goes. If needs be we'll stamp out this windsurfing rubbish and shove your masts so far up your ass, you'll cry for your step mom.
Ps. Speaking to Ian, and giving him the right of reply: "The windsurfers were flying up and down right through the zone with total disregard for us making it dangerous. It spun us out and ruined my session"
|
|
|
|
|
Roald
Posts:8
|
| 16/09/2009 7:20 PM |
|
PS I feel I should introduce you guys to one another Nic and Eugene. Eugene, Nic is the guy whom I witnessed going out through a mast high shorebreak at Witsands while peering through fogged up windows from my car trying to decide whether it really was worth risking my life. The moment I saw Nic, all doubt melted like a snowball in hell and I went out via the chicken entrance behind the factory with nothing but inspiration and a little bit of guts.
Nic, Eugene is the guy whom I witnessed pulling off the slickest push loop at Canon Rocks, PE, so far out to sea that I’m convinced not a single contest judge saw it and he did it for the sheer joy of it. What really impressed me though was how he graciously congratulated my girlfriend Maria for beating him in a round at the Swartriet event having had frustratingly little luck in choosing a wave to ride. He also lent me his wetsuit without which I would have missed out on one of the best days of my previous season.
I can’t help but think I’d be surprised if you guys didn’t get along if you’d meet.
Hi Guys and Girls,
Thanks for your comments. I know all of you and I feel privileged to call all of you my friends.
Without an accurate account of the events it is difficult to argue.
The “Ian incident”. Ian was surfing with his kids, when Nicolas and I saw him score a wave and decided to check it out. I caught a wave which wasn’t really a wave a came close to them, never out of control and never closer than 10 meters. He shouted. After my second wave I stayed just on the border of the kelp forest to talk to him and he paddled out. I was polite, said I wasn’t aware of anything I’d done wrong and suggested to share the spot. He was rude, said I was part of a greater problem, told us to get lost or risk getting in a lot of trouble and suggested sailing a different break. I asked his name and introduced myself saying I’d been here for 5 years and had never had any issues with surfers. That’s a lie, I’ve been here 4 years and I’d had issues at the Factory 2 weeks before that. I consulted Nicolas and we decided to leave.
The “previous incident”. Nicolas and I were out at the Factory when 2 surfers joined and promptly started shouting saying: “This is a surfspot, go away!” and when I didn’t they threatened yelling; “One more time!”. I’m sure he thought I dropped in on his wave. Now explain to me the logic of dropping in on someone’s wave when I was on it from half a mile out to sea… ?
We had a great session, but I was furious for half an hour. I’ve been threatened a few times in South Africa, physical or verbal violence is always the beginning of the end and it really always comes from people trying to conceil their weakness by projecting false strength. Wouldn’t it have been showing true strength of character if they’d accepted that they were going to have to share the spot and be happy for us catching a wave or two? I didn’t tell them to fuck off did I?
Now I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not the most capable/experienced windsurfer out there, but that’s not a reason why I can’t share the session with local celebrities. I’m a reasonable guy and I’m well aware of the threat I pose to sitting duck surfers. I always pay attention.
I want to thank Jake for the invitation to come and surf the Factory but I’m afraid I’m going to have to give it a miss. I’m a lousy surfer, but I do enjoy a good wave when I’m not mountainbiking.
I think I understand something of the etiquette of surfing, there is none when it’s crowded. I’m sure most surfers strive for the ideal of sharing with everyone being stoked afterwards, but in reality there is a fierce competition on the water. How ironic then that in order to be awed by the power of the wave and nature in general you have to feel small, humble and at the mercy of the something that is infinitely greater than yourself – yes you have to embrace your weakness – while you’re staking out your plot of water and trumping your ego to bluff the others out of the water.
My sweet revenge came Sunday a week and a half ago when SW swell was running in the bay of Witsands and I scored what felt like a hundred waves from 11h00 to 17h00 between the low and high tide, didn’t get trashed by the shore-break, helped a fellow windsurfer save his kit from the rocks and even met some friends on the beach. Where I sailed there is no take-off zone. And isn’t that the beauty of windsurfing, that you can go and meet the wave where it breaks?
I don’t really care about the Factory, there is something fishy about it.
Roald |
|
|
|
|
Eugene
Posts:121
|
| 16/09/2009 7:39 PM |
|
Nice Roald, I agree with you on everything, would love to have a beer with you, Nic(chot) and Jake, will give you a buzz on my next trip tp Town.
Jake, Give Mark or Jonny a call if you know them so well and have a chat. Else join us for a beer and I will fill you in.
Cheers.
The PE Kook! |
|
|
|
|
Donovan01
Posts:21
|
| 16/09/2009 9:52 PM |
|
Boys - keep it tidy.....No need for a pissing contest.
Surfers drop in on surfers - ask me with Supers and Seals as the home break!
Windsurfers drop in on windsurfers.
Often sailed in a mixed environment with NO problem.....often surfed/sailed in a homogenous environmment with BEEEG problems - often with not many out.
It's not a "code problem", or a "spot belongs to a code problem" - it's an individual behaviour problem.
Therefore codes can co exist at most spots.
Did you snake the guy or not? - look in the mirror and work it out for yourself - ie. grow up!
Enough said.
btw Jake/Chot/Et al....compare notes with Mark and Johnny...Eugene has a lot of kudos at 12 foot
G-Land - kind of puts the Factory into perspective.
Ok Ok - enough said!
|
|
|
|
|
africatom
Posts:8
|
| 19/09/2009 4:57 PM |
|
Great stuff guys!! |
|
|
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.7
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Windsurfers Online
|
|
|
 |
Membership: |
 |
Latest:
AMG |
 |
New Today:
0 |
 |
New Yesterday:
0 |
 |
Overall:
526 |
 |
People Online: |
 |
Visitors:
3 |
 |
Members:
0 |
 |
Total:
3 |
Online Now:
|
|
|
|
|
|